Price Tags
Imagine you are at a department store and surrounding you are all sorts of Ummmm lets say coats. Red ones, black ones, leather ones, wool ones...you get the point. The kicker is that none of them have price tags on them. They could be on sale for $10 or a designer jacket at $1000. The only way to find out is to take it up to the counter and pay for it. You could ask one of the clerks that are walking around, but they might just be guessing. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they aren't.
Sometimes I think it's better to walk around cold.
I see the dating scene as very similar to this analogy. You never know if someone likes you (The $10 jacket) or absolute rejection ($1000). You can ask your friends or theirs, but they aren't always correct. Sometimes there's noone to ask. When I wrote Red Light Green Light, I had no clue that this would turn into such an in depth conversation. I love to hear people's opinion on this. Please continue!
Thought up by Tmproff at 12:19 PM
21 People Talking:
There's always God to ask, which doesn't alleviate all the trouble but it does help. And I think the key is that you see the coat as priceless and are willing to do what it takes to be warm. And remember that the right coat wants to keep you warm. Umm okay having trouble keeping up with this extended metaphor, but the point is you don't want to take a risk on just any girl, you want to take a risk on someone in whom you see something special. $1000 isn't much to spend on something priceless. (In a completely non-prostitute kind of way of course.) And yes I hope people will continue commenting on the Red Light Green Light post, quite an enjoyable conversation going on there. I have more to say too, but I didn't want to hijack it so I will let others have a chance to respond before I add more thoughts. :)
And I think the key is that you see the coat as priceless and are willing to do what it takes to be warm.
Do you think every coat in the department store is priceless? Would you spend $1000 on each and every one of them?
When I was talking about $$$, I wasn't talking about the value of the coat, I was talking about the risk in buying one (or attempting to for that matter).
While every person is priceless, not all are suitable as a potential mate and thus not priceless in that capacity. I think to some extent I understand where you're coming from, though as a girl I cannot fully grasp how overwhelming it must be to decide which girl is worth taking a risk on. And even though you weren't talking about the value of the coat, doesn't that have to factor into it? Isn't it easier to take a risk on something invaluable? You could walk into the store and pick the first nice looking coat you see and take a risk, but it could be poorly crafted and you're about to risk $1000 on it. Isn't it better to spend more time and find out which coat you are best suited for and will best suit you? And at that point isn't the risk worth taking?
Dude, I'm gone three days and I miss a whale of a conversation!
I do believe it is the man's responsibility to pursue the woman, using actual words preferably. But you can't completely discount body language. Although I have been completely wrong in the past when it comes to reading body language.
What role should the woman play in initiating something with a guy? I"m not sure. I know personally I wouldn't be comfortable asking a guy out on a date (not just going out to eat as friends or something).
But I just wanted to say I can sympathize with the guys on how absolutely terrifying it must be to put yourself out there, asking girls out. In my job as a reporter I have some parallels to that -- sometimes I'm asked to do a "man on the street" type story, and I have to go up to total stranger in the park, mall, whatever and say weird things like, "Sorry to bother you, but I"m with the (paper name here) and was wondering if I could talk with you about Christmas shopping/Harriet Miers/gay marriage/etc etc.
So I know what it's like to put yourself on the line and realize, Hey, I could be absolutely and totally rejected her, nay even insulted or threatened.
But even if I didn't necessarily like a guy who asked me out, I'd still go out with him if he was a good, godly guy -- you never know if your feelings might change. First impressions can be wrong!
Just my two cents, from a person who will likely live with 20 cats when she's 60.
I also had to add that I don't know if I agree with the touching thing ... for me personally, it would be very weird, even just as a playful squeeze on the arm. I'm just not touchy-feely with people unless I'm really, really, really comfortable with them.
I have been wanting to join this dialogue ever since I stumbled upon it through Aziner's blog...but before I get into the red light green light topic, I want to remark on the coat analogy.
If you aren't convinced that you need a coat, want a coat, and are ready to find the perfect one (regardless of the cost) then get out of the store.
Your comment about maybe it might be better to be cold, makes one wonder what you are doing in the store.
My guess is you want a coat, in a deep longing and yearning sort of way, but you just aren't sure your heart can survive another 1,000 selection.
Maybe I am reading too much into this...or maybe not.
Ashlee, you are very close to what I was trying to get people to understand. The part about staying cold was just a joke tho :)
Most of the time, there is only one coat siting on an empty rack. and I stare at it...and wonder if it's going to be the $10 one or the really expensive one I can't afford. I wait, and I wait and I ponder....And then the store closes....I have to come back the next day and stare at it some more.
I'm the kind of guy that wont ask a girl out unless I think she'd say yes. Not because I'm so terrified of rejection, but I would not want the girl to feel uncomfortable.
Have you considered that the girl is wondering why you aren't asking? I guess my frustration with this whole thing is that we each try to guess what the other one might be thinking, there comes a point where you just have to jump. If it doesn't work out how you hope or if she feels uncomfortable, you can both get through it. I think it's better than one or both of you sitting around silently hoping.
aziner, I totally agree with you. In a perfect world, (a perfect Tmproff), I'd have the courage to ask someone out instantly.
As it stands now (and most guys will agree) we have to go through this ritual of gathering courage before we'll say anything. We think through all of the possible outcomes. We practice what we'd say....We imagine the girl smiling and throwing themselves into our arms.
Then we imagine them looking surprised that we even thought that something like a relationship could be possible. How it will cause havoc in your circle of friends. How you'll never be able to have an in depth conversation with that person ever again.
And then we pause... by then the window of opportunity has passed and you are left there imaging what could have been.
Ahh two places to comment I'm so confused! This is what I was going to originally say to Galen's last comment on the other post, though I thought it prudent to allow others to weigh in first. And now I feel that this string of comments lends itself to this response as well so I will write it here. This particularly relates to taking risks and missing windows. I don't think we're really big enough to screw something up that God has set in motion. And while timing is certainly important, there are ways to sort of get around it. The whole declaring your intentions thing I think is quite good, even if it sounds hokey. You don't have to ask a girl out in a "hey can I take you out on Friday" kind of way. I think it's better to say, "hey I enjoy our friendship and I think you're great and I would like to pursue something more with you. And I don't want to put pressure on you, I've had time to think about this and I knew that I was going to bring this up tonight. You had no warning so take your time and think about it and pray about it and let me know what you think." And is it really a such a great friendship if a someone is sitting there in silent pain wishing for more? Yes, I do like to dwell in the ideals. I realize the world isn't perfect, possibly the lack of perfection and my affinity for the idyllic is part of why I'm not in a relationship . . . who knows? ;)
I agree with you completely Aziner, and perhaps this approach is a little less direct, thus not as risky for the guy asking. But I wonder what a guy would think about this idea.
And just a side note, I don't think anyone (guy or girl) wants to know that they were selected in part because there was a lack of other choices...
I still am of the opinion there is a large number of people in the store who don't belong and consequently make things harder for the rest of us!
Shauna, I know many people that ask that question. IF I screw it up this time, will there be another chance? My answer is definatly yes. I think it's similar to Salvation. Would God only give you one chance to get saved?
We are on this earth for one single purpose. To glorify God. How do we do that? With our choices.
While the idea of one perfect soulmate is fun and romantic it's also very dangerous. It has the potential to lead to marital unhappiness and infidelity. When a relationship is going through something difficult and you have that line of thinking it's easy to say hey maybe this isn't my soulmate. Maybe my friend of the opposite sex over here to whom I always run when things are rough is actually my soulmate . . . You can see where I'm going with that I hope. Though that being said, I do think God has someone in mind for us and he will lead us and shape us into the person we are to be when he brings us to our future spouses. That is why it is remarkably important to be prayerfully and intentionally seeking God's will in this area. And yes I think you should only be in the store if you have the intention of earnestly seeking out what God has prepared for you there. Don't be wandering about in there aimlessly.
Are married people allowed to talk here, or are we disqualified?
izilvj
Jon, I think clearly a discussion about relationships is best dominated by those who are not in relationships as clearly they have more knowledge about the subject. Oh wait no, that doesn't make any sense. ;) Yes please join in!
I think part of the problem, in the Christian world at least, is what I call the Josh Harris-ification of dating. While I think Mr. Harris's intentions in writing I Kissed Dating Goodbye were noble, I think he inadvertently created an environment hostile to people of the opposite sex to get to know each other.
In other words, it's helpful to remember that sometimes a cup of coffee is just a cup of coffee (or a frappuccino is just a frappuccino.) If we were better at that, it would be easier for men to approach interesting women, and easier for women to say, "Sure, let's grab a bite." But Christian society doesn't operate that way - I know that I hassle my single friends when they go out for coffee with someone who might be interested in. (What would be the grammatically correct way to say that? Someone in whom they might have an interest?) Everything is amped up a notch (maybe people should go out for herbal tea, that might help.) Going on a date is viewed with as much trepidation as "going steady" (or whatever the cool kids call it these days...) and "dating" someone is viewed with as much obligation as if you were getting engaged.
That makes it really hard for a guy to muster up the courage to ask someone out, and makes it hard for a girl to say yes, because somehow we've gotten the idea that we have to be "absolutely sure" before we start dating. I think it wouldn't hurt us to be open to slightly more casual relationships... a season of life where you can be intentional about getting to know someone a deeper level, but not so involved that people will be crushed when they break up. Tara Leigh Cobble (who you should totally listen to her music) coined the phrase "Friendationship: (n) frin-DAY-shun-ship
A male-female relationship, which has exceeded the normal level of friendship, but has not yet acquired official relationship status." I think these could be healthy.
I have more thoughts on this, dealing with my own journey towards marriage and the general lack of parity in interest levels, but I'll save those for when I'm more awake and don't have to preach in church the next morning.
ullyta
Jon, you hit some really great points there. I totally agree that the Christian dating scene is totally warped.
A few years ago, I remember going to a Singles Bible Study where the women in the group had all decided that they weren't going to date any of the guys that attended the study. They felt that the risk of causing dissention in the group was too high and just not worth it.
Not that I'm particularly a fan of Joshua Harris, but I believe it is he who speaks of the danger of "playing house" or "playing marriage" something like that. I believe friendationships have too great a tendency to become this. I've seen too many people who are good friends and do a lot of the things that dating couples do but for whatever reason they're not actually dating. The trouble with this is that both people have all the emotional fulfillment they would get in a relationship without any of the commitment. And since it appears they're dating others are not so likely to ask them out. And they become stuck in this sort of in between state. I don't think that's healthy. That being said, I don't believe in dating in any traditional sense. I think it should look a lot like 2 friends hanging out & there doesn't need to be a lot of pressure of dressing up and going to fancy restaurants, I think people should be themselves and still be able to hang out with their other friends together or individually. But the difference with that idea is that each person knows that it's a relationship and they are deciding if it should head toward marriage. Perhaps momentarily between the friendship stage and the relationship stage this type of dating becomes a friendationship which I think is okay for a very short time, but I think people have a habit of getting stuck there & that's no good.
I agree with Aziner (sounds like my other post!) about friendationship period being very brief....
I think the key to that being successful is communicating the intent and expectations clearly from the get go.
I also think that this idea only works successfully if guys take the lead, and set the pace for when and how the relationship progresses. Meaning, be man enough to communicate if it isn't going anywhere or make a decision and don't allow yourself to ride the fence if it is.
But again, I come back to this concept of staying out of the coat store if you aren't ready to make a purchase. You see, if you don't know what you are looking for then you need a longer time to figure out if the jacket is what you need or in your price range. If you do, then I think when you see the jacket you know your search has ended (or at least that is what my married friends claim...which I love to believe!)
(Ummm….. sorry this is freaking long. It wasn't intentional...)
I think there are two underlying assumptions to dating that haven't really been examined, they've just been taken for granted:
1. In order for a dating relationship to be successful, it must be defined as such.
2. It is the man's responsibility to initiate the conversation which leads to that definition.
I wonder why this is. The second one makes more sense to me than the first: a traditional interpretation of Scripture leads one to the conclusion that men are the head of the household, so it follows that they would be the head of the dating relationship (although we certainly could discuss that point further.)
The first one, to me, is worthy of some more examination. Why is it that we equate "commitment" with "definition"? There are plenty of people in our lives that we are committed to without ever defining that commitment: I doubt if anyone ever had a deep conversation asking someone to be their best friend, even if it's someone who would take a bullet for you without question. We are (usually) committed to our families, without sitting down and saying "Will you be my brother, and act like you're my brother?"
When it comes to dating, though, people can become obsessed to the point of compulsion with trying to clearly define exactly what their status is. "We're just friends." "We're friends considering dating." "We're dating. Oh, no, wait... we're courting. Aren't we?"
I know whereof I speak. Lyn (my wife) and I spent hours and hours upon hours and hours trying to define our relationship. We were incredibly close friends, but I was interested in more, and she was maybe interested in more but didn't want to date yet... and then two weeks later one of us would change our minds, and we would have the whole conversation all over again. After trying this for well over a year, we realized that it was utterly out of control and we could never reach a decision that way, so we decided to stop having "relationship defining" talks and pray about it. We still hung out and talked and shared life together, but we stayed away from defining our relationship. I know that certainly pissed some of our friends off, but it's what we needed. After several months of that, things very naturally segued into a more formalized dating relationship, and seven months after that segued into a very formalized engagement.
I know that in dating one size will never fit all. It still might not hurt to consider exactly what drives us to insist on clearly defined roles. The main thing that comes to mind is insecurity - people are afraid that their affection (or love, if you choose to use that word) will not be reciprocated by the object of their affection. Defining yourself as dating someone provides a certain safety net, a small promise that "Yes, this person is attracted to me.” I know that I certainly craved that, and it drove me crazy that it wasn't always so in my friendationship with Lyn.
Defining a relationship is a way of saying that the light is green, and that there's a certain impetus for the light to stay green, for the coat not jack its price up. It gives the appearance of parity in affection levels.
What I've learned from one-and-a-half-odd-years (or so??) of dating and six months of marriage is that interest levels between two people never reach parity. They come close, and it certainly is a time of ecstasy when they do (like when one gets engaged or the time leading up to the wedding day), but it's that very lack of equality that makes love worth anything.
A love that is guaranteed to be reciprocated in equal measure is a love that doesn't have much risk involved, and therefore, in my opinion, isn't worth much.
It's only the love that risks, the love that reaches out when there is no safety net, no guarantee of return, that has real meaning. My wife and I certainly aren't at equal levels of interest in each other all the time. Sometimes I just want to spend time with her and chat and she just wants to do biology homework... sometimes she wants to snuggle and I want to roll over and fall asleep. But it's the act of reaching out, the act of pursuing (on both parts, man and woman), that makes marriage amazing. The knowledge that someone will reach out and love you when you don't feel like loving back is incredible.
I think if women (or men) had Red and Green lights on their head, there would generally be a yellow glow emanating from almost everywhere you looked. Most single people would only put on a solid Red light for a small, select group of people. And most people would only give a definite Green to a small group of people (a group that would grow consistently smaller as you got to know them better.) To most people we would show a varying shade of Yellow. Yes, come closer, but not too close. Go away, but come back a few steps for a minute.
It might be easier if things were more definite, less nebulous. But they aren't. And the (maybe) good news is that it doesn't change once you get married. Although you can turn your Red light on to every single person in the world except one, and know that your spouse will do the same, you rarely have to ability to give each other a solid Green light. It's persevering through the Yellow that makes love worthwhile.
Jon, I loved what you had to say about the hostile environment for dating among Christians, your words about the "yellow light", and the falacy of having equal levels of affection present on both sides of the relationship. Your way of expressing the risk that it takes to continually reach out in love (especially when affection is unequal!) was very beautifully written. Thank you for your wisdom.
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